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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 81 for the seventh of may

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2010 Richard Saunders here with you once

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again and today show well dr. Rachel and

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I went along to a very interesting

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initiative here in Sydney art think and

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play mrs. by the culture at work culture

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at work interesting interplay with

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science and art and we popped long the

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other night and we had a talk by Adam

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Hamlin about his research into neurons

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and lots of interesting pictures

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followed by a talk by melody Lord about

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her embroidery based on pictures of

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neurons from the brain and then we saw

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her embroidery that's coming up we have

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a little bit of the talk followed by an

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interview with Adam and melody after

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that the think tank very funny thing

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tank this week I think with a very

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special bus announcement now a fewer

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little notes before we get started thank

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you for everybody who turned up to

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Sydney skeptics in the pub elder in the

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last week what a wonderfully big turnout

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it was and thanks may not for coming

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along to Australian skeptics are working

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hard on the details of Tam Australia

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don't forget that coming up at the end

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of the year more announcements on that I

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think we might even have some

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announcements during the think tank of

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course members of Australian skeptics

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and the skeptics own podcast will be

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winging over to Las Vegas to join tam

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Vegas with James Randi and all our

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friends if you're going to the amazing

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meeting this year in Las Vegas make sure

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you are come over and say hello and

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don't forget to check out the podcast

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from our very own Kyle Easter just the

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token skeptic you can find that at token

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skeptic dot org I don't know when Kylie

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sleeps I I honestly no not only is she a

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reporter for the skeptic zone that she

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has a very own podcast the token skeptic

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and look out for dr. ray cheese blog the

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skeptics book of poo poo and Kylie

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Sturgis blog pod black now you can find

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those simply by going to skeptics own TV

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and you'll see the links there an

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entertaining skipped exam for you this

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we take you now to piermont here

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instantly for an initiative from culture

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at work art think and play a brief

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excerpt from the talk given to us by

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Adam Hamlin about his research into

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brain cells followed by a brief excerpt

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from the talk given to us by artist

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melody Lord and after that an interview

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with both of them with dr. ohe and

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myself further Iran's places we call

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your Genesis this is a great scientific

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story it's one of those stories where

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there was a long-held belief about how

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the brain boyfriend all the Sun was this

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date we had to change it like so this is

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she died with the okay so for a long

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time we thought the number of brain

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cells you were born with MZ may die

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throughout life and they were never

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regenerated and this is a picture I took

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of Iran's you know part of the brain

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called the hippocampus specifically the

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dentate gyrus meeting the truth and

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these are cells for two weeks old that

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have been born with integrated into the

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nervous system this is an early the

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privates involved in learning and memory

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function so like I said for a long time

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we didn't even think the neurogenesis

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happen in the brain 3983 it was first

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found in the bedroom so that all the

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Rockies in common of calling someone a

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bird brain I was ability like

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here in blue is all the neurons in the

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brain even read those shown here your

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arms that have been born in the bird

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brain so this is United 93 and by the

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early nineties your Genesis have been

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discovered in pretty much mammal species

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including the human brain so it doesn't

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happen everywhere in the ebit reacting

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to specific areas so bundled is called

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the subventricular zone around the

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ventricles the new year under born here

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my birth down and out into your factory

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bulbs so a sense of smell and stuff is

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always be neurons before mystic cells

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get exposed to the environment a

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lightweight two chemicals that are

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always getting turnovers relieve your

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arms coming into the or thank you got to

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keep our sensor so early there's also a

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secondary hook at the campus so this is

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what the original photo was taken off

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studies in your auntie morning of the

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campus this is an area that involved in

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learning and memory function so just

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quickly how this process happens we have

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a hold with stem cells hanging around in

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the subventricular zone and in the other

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campus hello that much the time that the

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state's themselves but occasionally they

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get all these new precursor cells and

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what happens is about half of each user

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guide and over half of them can go on to

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form new neural cells of which is a lot

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of types they can become support cells a

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disaster

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we go down the sides astrocytes are

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involved in transferring images from the

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blood the neurons because the neurons

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have actually come into contact with the

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blood where is the oligodendrocytes I

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know these form an insulation wire

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around yours to help fast transmission

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and as percentage of them can also

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become neurons so in the lab this is the

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process we use to study euro Genesis

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usually harvest shelves from the

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hippocampus usually from a mouse

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differentiated cells we grow them up in

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a culture dish and the way we can we can

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say the process of what happens and what

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sort of things can we do to try and

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stimulate neurogenesis areas of Brian

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and a few things we found is that any

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present status some hormones can

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stimulate neurogenesis as well after

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ischemia is after a brain trauma such as

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a stroke can also give an upregulation

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of your chances potentially is a way of

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I'm trying to make itself also following

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voluntary exercise which is really

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important if you force do the exercise

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of danger than your team hasn't been a

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one of the things I love about linking

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of textiles that you have such wonderful

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choice of tactile and visually beautiful

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materials to express what we're trying

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to say and I just love that which I

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wanted to seek them like some of the

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thread ladies were hand dyed silk

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threads which have gave a more organic

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quality to the color and sometimes they

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were just ordinary embroidery cotton

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like those funds which gave a bit more

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vibrant time and the thing that I found

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you doing the works is that the works

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developed differently you have to think

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about what you want to achieve when you

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start choosing materials plan out your

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process but other goes along the

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materials teach you different things

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about what you want to to do next or

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where the work is going often you end up

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a completely different result in a bit

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then you really thought

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to get them started this is bit more the

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particle this work was done with French

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knots and little bits of Panem satin

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stitch and it represents 40 hours of

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stitching I know some people will ask

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that i found it a very romantic practice

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to sit and french not a french not a

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french lot to choose the next color to

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work with to fill the space which I did

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all visually by checking back against

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the original picture and I thought a lot

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about what we know about the brain and

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what we don't know about the brain which

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in my case is a lot less than what

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elements that I think that any art form

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whether it's smart metal on paper music

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dance modern media or embroidery is a

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way of expressing knowledge and search

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for knowledge and that's how I feel that

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well we're here in Sydney in piermont

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and the exhibition is called kingdom of

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the blind it's a culture at work project

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which is a wonderful idea of combining

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science with art dr. AG it is and I'm

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we're with our very special guests

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melody Lord hello melody hello and

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melody is the artist here tonight who

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has done all the embroidery which was

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based on dr. Adam Hamlin's wonderful

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neuroscience pictures hi Adam I write to

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you again good to see you again don't in

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Sydney this far yeah so can you guys

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tell us a little bit about how this came

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to be how is it that a scientist and an

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artist are working together on such a

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great project culture at work is all

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about improving science education using

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art and creativity to encourage kids and

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adults to engage with the science so

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that's how it combines that if you if

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you think through the science while

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you're engaging the creative part of

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your brain it tends to go in better that

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that's the later now Adam it went in

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better for me tonight I think it was a

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wonderful presentation that I think

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substrate what I try to do with my

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presentation tonight was really show how

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science and art can be a really similar

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process remember trying to gather data

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in neuroscience when we take these

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beautiful images what we're mostly

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trying to do is gather data but a really

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good product of that is the making of

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these beautiful images that's really

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nice about being able to inspire

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melodies embroideries tonight and they

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just look fantastic hopefully we'll have

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some photos up of them somewhere you're

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doing them self pictures just by

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themselves a staggered out just almost

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something likes

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the wonderful organic shapes and it does

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remind one of the cosmos and galaxies

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absolutely sometimes when you're looking

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down a microscope it really reminds me

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of looking through a telescope it's

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amazing that the similar shapes inside

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our brain and the processes is also out

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there in the universe and speaking of

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telescopes Adam isn't that how you guys

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kind of mesh and sort of started this

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collaboration that's right about five

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years ago melody and I meant doing adult

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education course in astronomy and then

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we sort of lost contact when I moved up

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to Queensland to start working at QB I

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and then melody heard me interviewed the

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doctor a German we came up for many guys

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coming for the Australian skeptics

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conference and dr. Reiter did the tour

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and nobody sent me leave our guys was so

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lovely to hit your voice again together

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and I know this lady Cheryl that would

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be really interested in doing this

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science our project I think we should

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get together so Mellie you're a skeptic

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zona I am I listen to it while I'm doing

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embroidery well there you go that's

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fantastic and let's just step over now

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and we can discuss a few of the

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wonderful pieces of embroidery that are

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hanging here on the wall in this

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exhibition this one let me start with

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this this one in the middle here which

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is just just a burst of wonderful colors

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and can you explain that one for that

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one is based on an NRI image of a

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mouse-brain showing the axonal

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connections and it's worked in French

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knots to represent the each French not

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represents a bulb in the original image

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that shows a large or small connection

274
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:01,390
that was the original image was by

275
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random more drink at Queensland brain

276
00:13:10,330 --> 00:13:08,030
institute and took about 16 hours in the

277
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MRI machine to make so it's very

278
00:13:16,990 --> 00:13:12,500
intricate lots of friends nods it took

279
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me about 40 hours to stitch it and what

280
00:13:28,620 --> 00:13:25,950
so one of the reasons we take these

281
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really high resolution to MRI images is

282
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we're trying to capture disease and its

283
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really early processes so if we ever

284
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going to be able to treat your

285
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degenerative diseases or diseases of the

286
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brain we need to be able to detect them

287
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early so we use these really

288
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high-powered MRI images to see if we can

289
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capture the very early stages of disease

290
00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:49,330
and we get these really beautiful and

291
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intricate and high-resolution images of

292
00:13:56,450 --> 00:13:53,980
the brain and we were able to effect a

293
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small amount of sellers in early disease

294
00:13:59,970 --> 00:13:58,540
so you were saying during your

295
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presentation this is one of the most

296
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powerful MRIs yeah in the southern

297
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hannahs this is the most powerful MRI

298
00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:07,420
machine in the southern hemisphere it's

299
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a 16-point for Tesla for the physicists

300
00:14:16,730 --> 00:14:12,250
out there though know what I'm talking

301
00:14:20,670 --> 00:14:16,740
about it's one of us it's one of them

302
00:14:25,140 --> 00:14:20,680
it's one of the top five in the world

303
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:25,150
now this is an experimental machine so

304
00:14:29,340 --> 00:14:27,370
to be able to reach something in this

305
00:14:31,770 --> 00:14:29,350
machine you need to be less than six

306
00:14:34,050 --> 00:14:31,780
centimeters be and you need to stay

307
00:14:37,470 --> 00:14:34,060
completely still for 16 hours so it's

308
00:14:39,270 --> 00:14:37,480
purely an experimental machine so in the

309
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:39,280
future when the technology catches up

310
00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:40,810
we'll be able to do these type of

311
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analysis on the human brain and if

312
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:45,010
people want to see the pictures we're

313
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going to put them up you have a blog

314
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:48,640
melody which will give the address later

315
00:14:51,690 --> 00:14:49,930
but we'll put the pictures up for our

316
00:14:53,790 --> 00:14:51,700
listeners let's discuss this one which

317
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:53,800
is right next to it which I must admit

318
00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:55,690
if you had this in your presentation I

319
00:15:00,120 --> 00:14:57,130
had to duck out to feed the meter

320
00:15:02,670 --> 00:15:00,130
unfortunately it wasn't excellent but as

321
00:15:05,070 --> 00:15:02,680
soon as I walked round the corner human

322
00:15:07,230 --> 00:15:05,080
and I had a look at this embroidery the

323
00:15:09,260 --> 00:15:07,240
first thing that struck me was a mouse

324
00:15:12,540 --> 00:15:09,270
maze of course and that's the whole idea

325
00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:12,550
yes it actually started with one of the

326
00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:14,590
other words which will probably discuss

327
00:15:17,550 --> 00:15:15,640
later

328
00:15:20,190 --> 00:15:17,560
the big brain structure called the

329
00:15:22,580 --> 00:15:20,200
dentate gyrus which looks a little bit

330
00:15:24,780 --> 00:15:22,590
like a tail as well as the tooth and

331
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:24,790
because it's from a mouse brain I was

332
00:15:28,740 --> 00:15:27,490
thinking about mice and tails and I

333
00:15:30,390 --> 00:15:28,750
remembered a book that I read as a

334
00:15:33,660 --> 00:15:30,400
teenager called flowers for algernon

335
00:15:38,610 --> 00:15:33,670
which is was very popular in the 1970s

336
00:15:41,250 --> 00:15:38,620
about a young man who with below-average

337
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:41,260
intelligence who gets involved in an

338
00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:45,250
experiment becomes a genius the movie

339
00:15:50,670 --> 00:15:48,910
became super smart but yes and he had a

340
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:50,680
friend called Algernon who was a mouse

341
00:15:56,370 --> 00:15:53,770
who had had the same process so it's

342
00:15:59,790 --> 00:15:56,380
totally fictional but it's a very moving

343
00:16:03,960 --> 00:15:59,800
story about the way intelligence works

344
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:03,970
and about the way science works too they

345
00:16:07,650 --> 00:16:05,530
asked him what he thought about the

346
00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:07,660
future and he said a TV in every room he

347
00:16:14,910 --> 00:16:12,940
wasn't wrong so that's where I got the

348
00:16:16,770 --> 00:16:14,920
inspiration for the maze embroidery

349
00:16:21,090 --> 00:16:16,780
because I was thinking about mice and

350
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:21,100
Tails and the tail of the mouse in Lewis

351
00:16:24,990 --> 00:16:23,170
Carroll's Alice in Wonderland where it

352
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:25,000
goes in the shape of a tail down the

353
00:16:30,810 --> 00:16:27,970
page so there are lots of thoughts that

354
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:30,820
went into that one but yes it's funny I

355
00:16:34,380 --> 00:16:33,130
mean it really does say a lot and you

356
00:16:36,180 --> 00:16:34,390
were saying before and one of the things

357
00:16:38,670 --> 00:16:36,190
I was commenting is I really like the

358
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:38,680
story behind the artwork now let's just

359
00:16:44,070 --> 00:16:40,330
step over to the other side of the

360
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:44,080
exhibition and I must admit I like them

361
00:16:49,260 --> 00:16:45,970
all but this one really did catch my

362
00:16:52,260 --> 00:16:49,270
attention because the little story

363
00:16:54,270 --> 00:16:52,270
involved it's like to discuss that what

364
00:16:56,100 --> 00:16:54,280
this one is based on the dentate gyrus

365
00:16:59,180 --> 00:16:56,110
in a mouse's brain it's one of Adam's

366
00:17:01,650 --> 00:16:59,190
images of neurogenesis or stillbirth

367
00:17:04,980 --> 00:17:01,660
which you can probably tell you more

368
00:17:08,990 --> 00:17:04,990
about but the idea of behind the image

369
00:17:11,699 --> 00:17:09,000
is that it's a fairly abstract

370
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:11,709
representation of the way new brain

371
00:17:17,730 --> 00:17:14,050
cells grow and make connections in the

372
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:17,740
brain tissue so the stitches around the

373
00:17:21,449 --> 00:17:21,010
tooth shaped or the tail shaped central

374
00:17:25,139 --> 00:17:21,459
part

375
00:17:27,449 --> 00:17:25,149
reach out towards the other cells in the

376
00:17:29,010 --> 00:17:27,459
brain which are depicted in the

377
00:17:32,250 --> 00:17:29,020
embroidery it also struck me as

378
00:17:34,830 --> 00:17:32,260
something almost like primitive cultures

379
00:17:37,049 --> 00:17:34,840
artwork can you see that what I mean yes

380
00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:37,059
with the patterns and everything there

381
00:17:40,909 --> 00:17:38,559
but I love the fact that it's telling a

382
00:17:43,019 --> 00:17:40,919
story as well well a lot of embroidery

383
00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:43,029
traditionally comes from that background

384
00:17:49,860 --> 00:17:47,440
it starts as a natural form which people

385
00:17:52,169 --> 00:17:49,870
represent in stitches on their clothing

386
00:17:55,620 --> 00:17:52,179
or on practical items to make them

387
00:17:58,409 --> 00:17:55,630
beautiful and I think that this one

388
00:17:59,909 --> 00:17:58,419
works in the same way it takes just an

389
00:18:02,100 --> 00:17:59,919
image from nature although it's a

390
00:18:05,220 --> 00:18:02,110
microscope image and just turns it into

391
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:05,230
a design that can speak to you in a

392
00:18:09,149 --> 00:18:07,570
different way it was also interesting to

393
00:18:11,310 --> 00:18:09,159
and something I'd like to briefly

394
00:18:13,799 --> 00:18:11,320
discuss with you Adam as you were saying

395
00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:13,809
in your talking about the myth on cell

396
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:16,720
death in the brain once the brain cells

397
00:18:20,299 --> 00:18:18,490
die that's in which is something I

398
00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:20,309
certainly grew up believing yeah

399
00:18:25,860 --> 00:18:22,240
neurogenesis is one of those great

400
00:18:27,630 --> 00:18:25,870
scientific stories where long-held

401
00:18:29,850 --> 00:18:27,640
scientific belief has just had to be

402
00:18:31,799 --> 00:18:29,860
thrown out because new data has come

403
00:18:34,649 --> 00:18:31,809
along we've had to completely rethink

404
00:18:36,630 --> 00:18:34,659
how the brain works yeah I for a long

405
00:18:38,820 --> 00:18:36,640
time ever since the days of kahala and

406
00:18:40,620 --> 00:18:38,830
hurling neuroscience it was thought that

407
00:18:42,330 --> 00:18:40,630
the number of cells that we're all with

408
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:42,340
was all you were going to have for the

409
00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:46,090
rest of your life then in 1983 was first

410
00:18:50,850 --> 00:18:48,370
found in a bird brain actually that the

411
00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:50,860
words these new cells have been born in

412
00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:53,350
the bright so we completely had to

413
00:18:58,380 --> 00:18:55,600
rethink and then people started looking

414
00:19:00,690 --> 00:18:58,390
into mammals and other mammals there by

415
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:00,700
the early linings neurogenesis have been

416
00:19:06,419 --> 00:19:03,010
found in most mammal species including

417
00:19:08,669 --> 00:19:06,429
the human brain so Iran's are being born

418
00:19:10,350 --> 00:19:08,679
in your brain all the time there's a

419
00:19:11,850 --> 00:19:10,360
hope for us all but for each

420
00:19:14,570 --> 00:19:11,860
and you also had some interesting

421
00:19:17,390 --> 00:19:14,580
information Adam about how

422
00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:17,400
antidepressants can actually encourage

423
00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:20,500
neurogenesis and also exercise when you

424
00:19:25,350 --> 00:19:22,240
say exercise do you mean exercising your

425
00:19:28,170 --> 00:19:25,360
brain or your body I mean your body so

426
00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:28,180
we we're trying to understand things

427
00:19:33,210 --> 00:19:30,550
that can stimulate this process in the

428
00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:33,220
brain so your Genesis doesn't happen all

429
00:19:37,710 --> 00:19:35,440
over the brain happens in two specific

430
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:37,720
regions of the brain there's one called

431
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:39,970
the subventricular zone and they supply

432
00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:42,130
to yourselves to your olfactory cortex

433
00:19:46,830 --> 00:19:45,310
so where we smell and we think the

434
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:46,840
reason that this is is because these

435
00:19:50,940 --> 00:19:48,130
cells are so exposed to the environment

436
00:19:53,490 --> 00:19:50,950
and chemicals so they lead to get turn

437
00:19:55,290 --> 00:19:53,500
over all the time so in another area of

438
00:19:56,940 --> 00:19:55,300
the brain in the hippocampus which is

439
00:19:59,610 --> 00:19:56,950
involved in learning and memory we've

440
00:20:08,240 --> 00:19:59,620
also shown this these new cells being

441
00:20:14,250 --> 00:20:11,760
okay so we're trying to study what sort

442
00:20:16,050 --> 00:20:14,260
of things can we stimulate particularly

443
00:20:17,550 --> 00:20:16,060
these dentate gyrus ones on these

444
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:17,560
hippocampal one because they're involved

445
00:20:21,650 --> 00:20:19,210
in learning a memory and what we've

446
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:21,660
shown in a laboratory is that

447
00:20:26,730 --> 00:20:24,370
antidepressants can stimulate this this

448
00:20:30,210 --> 00:20:26,740
may be one mechanism about how they're

449
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:30,220
working to improve people's outlook

450
00:20:33,810 --> 00:20:32,530
potentially I mean we don't know that

451
00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:33,820
for sure we don't know what the

452
00:20:38,580 --> 00:20:36,400
functional outcome of this neurogenesis

453
00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:38,590
easier we just know antidepressants can

454
00:20:45,450 --> 00:20:41,470
stimulator certain hormones can also

455
00:20:48,060 --> 00:20:45,460
stimulate it and exercise interesting

456
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:48,070
physical exercise but it must be

457
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:50,410
voluntary which is really interesting so

458
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:52,810
if you want to go out for a run it needs

459
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:56,050
to do rewarding and I need to be

460
00:21:00,810 --> 00:20:57,410
motivated to do

461
00:21:03,790 --> 00:21:00,820
please stick a mouse on on a treadmill

462
00:21:05,590 --> 00:21:03,800
and make it mom we get non-euro Genesis

463
00:21:08,140 --> 00:21:05,600
if you stick a running wheel in the cage

464
00:21:09,940 --> 00:21:08,150
then we get great neurogenesis so if you

465
00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:09,950
give them the option of using another

466
00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:11,840
option and they do what I love to run

467
00:21:16,270 --> 00:21:14,510
but if they choose to run with megan

468
00:21:18,790 --> 00:21:16,280
mutants so the lesson for our listeners

469
00:21:22,180 --> 00:21:18,800
Richard is get on that treadmill funny

470
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:22,190
of you want to you want to just lastly

471
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:24,490
can we talk about the apoptosis

472
00:21:27,910 --> 00:21:26,330
embroideries Melanie because I

473
00:21:30,460 --> 00:21:27,920
absolutely love this one it was one I

474
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:30,470
get it was my garlic sea or something

475
00:21:37,150 --> 00:21:32,930
that's not these ones are going to quite

476
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:37,160
abstract designs rather than repin than

477
00:21:42,430 --> 00:21:40,010
visual representations but basically

478
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:42,440
then if you look at the three of them as

479
00:21:48,610 --> 00:21:46,490
a set the first one the stitches are all

480
00:21:53,380 --> 00:21:48,620
connected and they go in rows and

481
00:21:56,380 --> 00:21:53,390
they're quite ordered and put together

482
00:21:58,720 --> 00:21:56,390
the second one you can see the chaos of

483
00:22:01,600 --> 00:21:58,730
the dying cells the stitches are not

484
00:22:07,570 --> 00:22:01,610
connected the background is very messy

485
00:22:10,540 --> 00:22:07,580
and but it's not messy I suppose it's

486
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:10,550
yet coyote and so you can see the

487
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:13,280
destruction of the cells there and then

488
00:22:17,650 --> 00:22:15,770
the third one in the series which is

489
00:22:20,770 --> 00:22:17,660
based on Adams image that shows only a

490
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:20,780
few living cells is quite blank except

491
00:22:25,690 --> 00:22:23,120
for right now here's the three in

492
00:22:29,220 --> 00:22:25,700
context rihanna's yes yeah so the first

493
00:22:32,020 --> 00:22:29,230
one is someone ordered the second one is

494
00:22:36,010 --> 00:22:32,030
very chaotic and the third one is very

495
00:22:38,780 --> 00:22:36,020
simplistic yes the middle minimalist I

496
00:22:40,790 --> 00:22:38,790
think there's hope in that third one

497
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:40,800
because the cells that remain are still

498
00:22:45,650 --> 00:22:43,650
connected so it's not all bad news now

499
00:22:47,630 --> 00:22:45,660
by now our listeners are just going to

500
00:22:49,220 --> 00:22:47,640
see what we're talking about where can

501
00:22:52,370 --> 00:22:49,230
they run with their fingers on the

502
00:22:56,150 --> 00:22:52,380
Internet to have a look our blog is at

503
00:23:00,770 --> 00:22:56,160
culture at work or one word hyphen

504
00:23:01,940 --> 00:23:00,780
Hamlin hyphen Lord blogspot com I hope

505
00:23:04,340 --> 00:23:01,950
you'll put a link to that because it's

506
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:04,350
hard to remember where the ruling and

507
00:23:09,620 --> 00:23:06,480
the works are all on there in one form

508
00:23:11,930 --> 00:23:09,630
or another I'll put up finished pictures

509
00:23:14,510 --> 00:23:11,940
of them soon and there's also some of

510
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:14,520
your microscopy up there Adam and so the

511
00:23:18,650 --> 00:23:16,770
images that inspired melodies

512
00:23:20,330 --> 00:23:18,660
embroideries are also on the block so

513
00:23:22,490 --> 00:23:20,340
people want to end it to trick that of

514
00:23:24,710 --> 00:23:22,500
how they how Adam created them in what

515
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:24,720
they represent two from Adam rumors on

516
00:23:29,630 --> 00:23:27,330
that what a wonderful project you guys

517
00:23:32,690 --> 00:23:29,640
I'm so inspired it was so fantastic to

518
00:23:34,130 --> 00:23:32,700
see science and art which I always have

519
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:34,140
thought should be together because I

520
00:23:38,030 --> 00:23:36,090
come from an art background but to

521
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:38,040
actually see it come together in such a

522
00:23:58,750 --> 00:23:41,250
great exhibition was fantastic thank you

523
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:01,100
astronomy cast who takes a fact space

524
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:02,970
journey through the cosmos as it offers

525
00:24:07,550 --> 00:24:04,890
listeners weekly discussions on

526
00:24:10,550 --> 00:24:07,560
astronomical topics ranging from planets

527
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:10,560
to cosmology hosted by Fraser Cain of

528
00:24:13,790 --> 00:24:12,930
Universe Today and myself dr. Pamela gay

529
00:24:16,460 --> 00:24:13,800
of southern illinois university

530
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:16,470
edwardsville this show brings the

531
00:24:20,750 --> 00:24:18,330
questions of an avid astronomy lover

532
00:24:22,850 --> 00:24:20,760
directly to an astronomer together

533
00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:22,860
Fraser and I explore what is known and

534
00:24:27,140 --> 00:24:24,390
being discovered about the universe

535
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:27,150
around us join us each week as we take a

536
00:24:37,070 --> 00:24:29,250
fact space journey through the cosmos at

537
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:40,470
join us now for drinking skeptically in

538
00:24:57,270 --> 00:24:50,650
the think tank screaming children of

539
00:25:02,430 --> 00:24:57,280
left cheers everybody she is I can't

540
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:02,440
clinically lets me how people here side

541
00:25:12,540 --> 00:25:11,170
you have their cheese all the rest of

542
00:25:15,140 --> 00:25:12,550
you can go home now we'll just stick

543
00:25:19,410 --> 00:25:15,150
with it what we haven't yet thank you

544
00:25:21,090 --> 00:25:19,420
joining me oh dear you should see what's

545
00:25:23,580 --> 00:25:21,100
going on here folks joining me in the

546
00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:23,590
think tank tonight in our favorite club

547
00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:24,940
down the street in the Chinese

548
00:25:30,780 --> 00:25:26,910
restaurant alone along the back wall

549
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:30,790
Iran so give hello Iran hello written we

550
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:33,130
also have our favorite Diane bish top

551
00:25:40,290 --> 00:25:35,410
and hello Diane I'm itching hi how do

552
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:40,300
you say hello in Dutch honey hello so

553
00:25:46,850 --> 00:25:44,290
exotic boy and Dinah Lee give me some

554
00:25:50,940 --> 00:25:46,860
more dutch words throughout the evening

555
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:50,950
miss some of them not nice probably is

556
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:55,120
nurse joke hello joy hi Joe I like your

557
00:25:58,890 --> 00:25:57,010
little bro chiefing I thank you thank

558
00:26:02,130 --> 00:25:58,900
you it's very artistic they're very um

559
00:26:08,540 --> 00:26:02,140
not not appropriate for a podcast is it

560
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:08,550
no not really my gosh dr. Rachel Bonjour

561
00:26:16,620 --> 00:26:13,930
ha whooping here that's German having a

562
00:26:18,990 --> 00:26:16,630
linguistically diverse think tanks

563
00:26:27,810 --> 00:26:19,000
tonight we are the neurons gonna say

564
00:26:31,490 --> 00:26:27,820
something in Hebrew ma no on idea ok

565
00:26:36,090 --> 00:26:31,500
give you something very some zoo

566
00:26:40,020 --> 00:26:36,100
well Oh Darren son born up what's that

567
00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:40,030
mean hello how are you I think we should

568
00:26:45,299 --> 00:26:41,950
get on with a think tank now actually we

569
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:45,309
stopped in love editing work to do no no

570
00:26:49,409 --> 00:26:48,130
heavens above now I look just something

571
00:26:51,169 --> 00:26:49,419
that caught my eye before we get into

572
00:26:54,029 --> 00:26:51,179
the interesting topics of the week

573
00:26:56,340 --> 00:26:54,039
walking into the our club tonight on the

574
00:27:01,200 --> 00:26:56,350
wall there are two ads two posters for

575
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:01,210
upcoming psychic events no yes they do I

576
00:27:04,409 --> 00:27:03,130
think just to a noise I think they also

577
00:27:08,250 --> 00:27:04,419
put them up when they know we're not

578
00:27:10,799 --> 00:27:08,260
coming unfortunately I just have a lot

579
00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:10,809
of psychic events and it's you do we

580
00:27:16,289 --> 00:27:13,360
have a psychic festival coming up in

581
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:16,299
june or july i think so they have one

582
00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:17,890
every six months like mind-body wallet

583
00:27:25,380 --> 00:27:20,710
downs done downtown and i've also got a

584
00:27:28,710 --> 00:27:25,390
special one-day psychic workshop only

585
00:27:31,169 --> 00:27:28,720
you're only a hundred dollars only a

586
00:27:33,419 --> 00:27:31,179
hundred dollars you know what I that I

587
00:27:36,110 --> 00:27:33,429
always were these evenings I always want

588
00:27:39,899 --> 00:27:36,120
to see I want to once once in up my life

589
00:27:43,529 --> 00:27:39,909
have put my hands on the letter of

590
00:27:45,930 --> 00:27:43,539
invitation to a psychic like a letter

591
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:45,940
that invites them to join such a psychic

592
00:27:53,270 --> 00:27:49,510
festival yeah oh I see it's just it

593
00:27:55,409 --> 00:27:53,280
would be just the rnase just for a woman

594
00:27:59,279 --> 00:27:55,419
don't open that letter I know what's

595
00:28:02,340 --> 00:27:59,289
inside speaking about psychics let's

596
00:28:05,130 --> 00:28:02,350
just rattle off in what I've gathered as

597
00:28:07,430 --> 00:28:05,140
the four big big E's for the year so far

598
00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:07,440
more big events that they've all missed

599
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:11,110
starting off the haiti earthquake the

600
00:28:15,270 --> 00:28:13,450
volcano which no one can pronounce the

601
00:28:18,140 --> 00:28:15,280
name of in Iceland which is still

602
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:18,150
causing trouble at cult veneers can Oh

603
00:28:21,810 --> 00:28:19,600
in fact

604
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:21,820
on media what's last week being able to

605
00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:24,130
do it we'll just say the icelandic

606
00:28:29,039 --> 00:28:26,230
volcano you all know what i mean again

607
00:28:32,250 --> 00:28:29,049
causing trouble chilean earthquake was

608
00:28:36,510 --> 00:28:32,260
that this was that was this year this is

609
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:36,520
JT haiti was this year whenever the

610
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:38,650
chilly one was it wasn't predicted it

611
00:28:44,669 --> 00:28:42,730
wasn't um the oil spill in the united

612
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:44,679
states which they are saying is one of

613
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:47,650
the biggest oil disasters I believe it's

614
00:28:54,630 --> 00:28:50,650
now gone it's it's more than the exxon

615
00:28:57,950 --> 00:28:54,640
valdez now it is huge yeah it was on the

616
00:29:00,680 --> 00:28:57,960
news again a huge story hello I mean and

617
00:29:03,419 --> 00:29:00,690
there's a side note Australia has a new

618
00:29:07,529 --> 00:29:03,429
sporting champion world snooker champion

619
00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:07,539
oh yeah you didn't hear about that from

620
00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:11,470
the psychics no no Stephen Fry torture

621
00:29:16,049 --> 00:29:14,320
unless we clever I think it was a good

622
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:16,059
even if our big deal city in protected

623
00:29:20,850 --> 00:29:18,210
speech would be name-dropping know

624
00:29:22,860 --> 00:29:20,860
already dropped convenience and stable

625
00:29:24,990 --> 00:29:22,870
fry I got rivered it wasn't pointed out

626
00:29:26,789 --> 00:29:25,000
that um we're actually mistaken by

627
00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:26,799
referring to this is an oil spill in oil

628
00:29:30,570 --> 00:29:29,110
spill is when a bunch of oil falls out

629
00:29:33,180 --> 00:29:30,580
of a ship as opposed to what's going on

630
00:29:35,909 --> 00:29:33,190
a massive oil rig notion which which I

631
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:35,919
imagine would be a far yeah but but I

632
00:29:39,090 --> 00:29:37,330
mean I would imagine it would be a much

633
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:39,100
greater proportion anyway than the spill

634
00:29:51,570 --> 00:29:48,870
alright and before I pass over pass the

635
00:29:53,010 --> 00:29:51,580
microphone over to dr. H he and Joe

636
00:29:54,330 --> 00:29:53,020
you're not gonna pass over right I'm not

637
00:29:56,850 --> 00:29:54,340
gonna pass over right here how the food

638
00:30:02,040 --> 00:29:56,860
was pretty good actually I assure you

639
00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:02,050
the food was fine listeners in the

640
00:30:06,150 --> 00:30:03,790
mid-north coast area or the north coast

641
00:30:09,060 --> 00:30:06,160
area of New South Wales around them

642
00:30:11,370 --> 00:30:09,070
mucker heads the name buck of valley you

643
00:30:13,860 --> 00:30:11,380
can hear portions of the skeptic zone

644
00:30:18,090 --> 00:30:13,870
including great insult and dr. H in some

645
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:18,100
other things on radio too NVR FM and

646
00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:21,810
that's 10 5.9 on your fm dial they

647
00:30:26,910 --> 00:30:24,760
replaying parts of the skeptic zone on

648
00:30:29,130 --> 00:30:26,920
public radio so that's really good next

649
00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:29,140
that's excellent and thank you to the

650
00:30:39,630 --> 00:30:34,000
people there at Radio 2 in the rfm dr.

651
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:39,640
aging yes dr. Richard uh nurse Joe and I

652
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:42,730
am pouring over some literature at the

653
00:30:47,580 --> 00:30:45,130
moment which I was alerted to last night

654
00:30:50,730 --> 00:30:47,590
on twitter by Professor David Cahoon now

655
00:30:53,850 --> 00:30:50,740
there I go name-dropping you smile you

656
00:30:58,470 --> 00:30:53,860
mean okay yes that's Joe at so better

657
00:31:01,380 --> 00:30:58,480
mood is that right dr. AG it is at

658
00:31:07,500 --> 00:31:01,390
skeptic tyne and oh look over there they

659
00:31:15,830 --> 00:31:07,510
said tired underscore haha that's just

660
00:31:18,919 --> 00:31:15,840
me let me you don't want at me anyway um

661
00:31:21,289 --> 00:31:18,929
I what basically what we're looking at

662
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:21,299
is a document for the what's it called

663
00:31:25,460 --> 00:31:23,130
Joe national national institute of

664
00:31:27,169 --> 00:31:25,470
complementary medicine yeah the national

665
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:27,179
issue of complementary medicine which I

666
00:31:31,850 --> 00:31:29,610
only discovered last night no exists in

667
00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:31,860
Australia yes I was actually quite

668
00:31:37,730 --> 00:31:34,110
stunned to realize I didn't know this

669
00:31:39,740 --> 00:31:37,740
existed in Australia well I dug up the

670
00:31:41,060 --> 00:31:39,750
information from the website last night

671
00:31:44,090 --> 00:31:41,070
when I was doing some googling for

672
00:31:46,010 --> 00:31:44,100
another reason and upon reading the

673
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:46,020
background of it I realized that I

674
00:31:49,820 --> 00:31:47,730
didn't know this was happening here but

675
00:31:52,130 --> 00:31:49,830
for international license this is kind

676
00:31:53,810 --> 00:31:52,140
of the Australian equivalent of n cam

677
00:31:55,070 --> 00:31:53,820
which is the national center for

678
00:31:58,880 --> 00:31:55,080
complementary and alternative medicine

679
00:32:01,789 --> 00:31:58,890
set up by the NIH in the state and

680
00:32:04,820 --> 00:32:01,799
they've been criticized a lot because

681
00:32:09,230 --> 00:32:04,830
they've already spent 2.5 billion

682
00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:09,240
dollars since they're setting up and so

683
00:32:17,450 --> 00:32:12,240
far they've pretty much found nothing

684
00:32:19,580 --> 00:32:17,460
useful so this was instigated because in

685
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:19,590
2006 the Chinese government announced

686
00:32:23,139 --> 00:32:21,090
they were going to put significant

687
00:32:28,639 --> 00:32:23,149
amounts of money into international

688
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:28,649
collaborative research and basically

689
00:32:31,549 --> 00:32:30,000
they sent out a message across the world

690
00:32:33,230 --> 00:32:31,559
saying we want more research done on

691
00:32:35,630 --> 00:32:33,240
Chinese medicine because we want it more

692
00:32:37,730 --> 00:32:35,640
widely accepted because the Chinese

693
00:32:39,919 --> 00:32:37,740
themselves have come under a lot of

694
00:32:42,409 --> 00:32:39,929
criticism for reason reason i'm laughing

695
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:42,419
is because again it's the gold thing the

696
00:32:45,889 --> 00:32:44,490
goal is not to find out whether it works

697
00:32:49,100 --> 00:32:45,899
so we can know whether to use it honor

698
00:32:52,580 --> 00:32:49,110
because we want it accept it the whole

699
00:32:54,529 --> 00:32:52,590
premise is the problem well because the

700
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:54,539
Chinese have been heavily criticized for

701
00:32:59,930 --> 00:32:57,770
research into Chinese medicine and so

702
00:33:01,669 --> 00:32:59,940
the australian government took advantage

703
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:01,679
of the fact that the Chinese were giving

704
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:04,559
out all this money and the National

705
00:33:08,659 --> 00:33:06,450
Medical Health and Medical Research

706
00:33:11,779 --> 00:33:08,669
Council the NHMRC that's our government

707
00:33:15,169 --> 00:33:11,789
body who hands up his research grants

708
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:15,179
they in 2006 took a special initiative

709
00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:17,850
to hand out 5 million bucks to people

710
00:33:22,010 --> 00:33:20,000
who wanted to become involved in

711
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:22,020
researching can

712
00:33:27,260 --> 00:33:24,810
can I be involved if you want to put in

713
00:33:29,030 --> 00:33:27,270
a garage oh oh yeah 45 million bucks I

714
00:33:32,030 --> 00:33:29,040
will well you don't get oh my god

715
00:33:33,770 --> 00:33:32,040
they've gotta let it out of it but yeah

716
00:33:35,390 --> 00:33:33,780
and I remember hearing about this

717
00:33:37,490 --> 00:33:35,400
because I remember hearing that the new

718
00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:37,500
south wales government was going to put

719
00:33:43,010 --> 00:33:39,510
in four million dollars towards building

720
00:33:44,540 --> 00:33:43,020
a specialized independent facility which

721
00:33:46,460 --> 00:33:44,550
at the time I thought was going to be

722
00:33:47,750 --> 00:33:46,470
part of the University of Sydney it

723
00:33:51,550 --> 00:33:47,760
turns out us at the University of

724
00:33:53,870 --> 00:33:51,560
Western Sydney and the Office of Science

725
00:33:56,740 --> 00:33:53,880
osm our Office of Science Medical

726
00:34:00,560 --> 00:33:56,750
Research Council which is a state-run

727
00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:00,570
science sort of outreach body they gave

728
00:34:05,060 --> 00:34:02,640
six hundred thousand dollars towards

729
00:34:07,460 --> 00:34:05,070
this project no I were you money money

730
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:07,470
yeah just being thrown at it and I

731
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:08,850
remember when I heard about this because

732
00:34:12,860 --> 00:34:10,530
I actually happen to be at a dinner with

733
00:34:15,260 --> 00:34:12,870
an MP a member of parliament who was

734
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:15,270
involved in giving out this funding and

735
00:34:20,630 --> 00:34:17,490
I was asking them why they were putting

736
00:34:22,850 --> 00:34:20,640
all this money into this project anyway

737
00:34:25,010 --> 00:34:22,860
so that's the background but it but it

738
00:34:27,380 --> 00:34:25,020
turns out that this is yeah the National

739
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:27,390
Center the National Institute of

740
00:34:31,970 --> 00:34:29,520
complementary medicine it's based at the

741
00:34:33,110 --> 00:34:31,980
University of Western Sydney and judge

742
00:34:35,060 --> 00:34:33,120
you want to talk a little bit about

743
00:34:37,669 --> 00:34:35,070
who's behind it and what they do yeah

744
00:34:39,590 --> 00:34:37,679
look it's actually a lot of interesting

745
00:34:41,090 --> 00:34:39,600
stuff when you when you get down to

746
00:34:43,970 --> 00:34:41,100
what's going on here and whose

747
00:34:46,700 --> 00:34:43,980
involvement on and look when I can't

748
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:46,710
name any any names off the top of my

749
00:34:50,659 --> 00:34:48,450
head but a lot of people involved are

750
00:34:53,180 --> 00:34:50,669
people with you know significant

751
00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:53,190
scientific and research backgrounds in

752
00:34:58,460 --> 00:34:55,200
medicine and so on and there are a lot

753
00:35:01,940 --> 00:34:58,470
of very reputable people involved one

754
00:35:03,950 --> 00:35:01,950
name I did note however was on there and

755
00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:03,960
one of their advisory councils and

756
00:35:09,170 --> 00:35:06,480
that's dr. Karen Phelps Professor Kerin

757
00:35:12,140 --> 00:35:09,180
Phelps who we've spoken about before and

758
00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:12,150
she is actually the recipient of one of

759
00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:15,680
the grants for some research through her

760
00:35:22,180 --> 00:35:19,910
clinic which itself is a promoter and

761
00:35:25,870 --> 00:35:22,190
user of the complementary medicine and

762
00:35:28,690 --> 00:35:25,880
the specific garage in fact goes towards

763
00:35:32,650 --> 00:35:28,700
a bit of a an interesting thing that

764
00:35:35,230 --> 00:35:32,660
they're researching okay so so professor

765
00:35:37,930 --> 00:35:35,240
Phelps is on one of the advisory

766
00:35:41,170 --> 00:35:37,940
committees as I said and they're doing a

767
00:35:42,940 --> 00:35:41,180
study into Anna it's called an appraisal

768
00:35:44,650 --> 00:35:42,950
of Health Services data and outcome

769
00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:44,660
measurement tools for use in an

770
00:35:49,150 --> 00:35:46,400
Australian primary care integrative

771
00:35:52,870 --> 00:35:49,160
medicine setting and I mean really I

772
00:35:54,849 --> 00:35:52,880
think what they're looking at is what

773
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:54,859
what Professor Phelps is very heavily

774
00:35:59,770 --> 00:35:57,010
promoting which is bringing

775
00:36:01,059 --> 00:35:59,780
complementary therapies into medical

776
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:01,069
practices and it's something that her

777
00:36:05,980 --> 00:36:04,130
clinic is actually doing now the thing

778
00:36:08,799 --> 00:36:05,990
is and this is this is the problem I

779
00:36:12,490 --> 00:36:08,809
have with a lot of what this sir this

780
00:36:15,010 --> 00:36:12,500
institute is doing they I have no

781
00:36:18,849 --> 00:36:15,020
problem as it stands with research being

782
00:36:20,529 --> 00:36:18,859
done in to herbal medicines into you

783
00:36:23,559 --> 00:36:20,539
know a lot of the practices that they're

784
00:36:24,609 --> 00:36:23,569
looking at as complementary medicine or

785
00:36:26,289 --> 00:36:24,619
whatever you want to call it I've got a

786
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:26,299
problem with research being done into it

787
00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:28,970
if it's good rigorous research what I

788
00:36:33,490 --> 00:36:31,730
have a problem with is that on the one

789
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:33,500
hand there are some sides of this

790
00:36:38,740 --> 00:36:35,410
institute which seem to be really

791
00:36:42,460 --> 00:36:38,750
addressing the issues of rigor of good

792
00:36:46,779 --> 00:36:42,470
methodology of doing good research but

793
00:36:48,609 --> 00:36:46,789
on the other hand they are dabbling and

794
00:36:51,010 --> 00:36:48,619
mixing with some areas within

795
00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:51,020
complementary therapies which at face

796
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:52,910
value in terms of things like prior

797
00:36:58,269 --> 00:36:55,010
plausibility can be thrown out the

798
00:36:59,920 --> 00:36:58,279
window like homeopathy now they're their

799
00:37:01,420 --> 00:36:59,930
main research grants are not going

800
00:37:02,980 --> 00:37:01,430
towards anything like that their

801
00:37:06,990 --> 00:37:02,990
research grants are going into things

802
00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:07,000
which you could say are reasonable

803
00:37:12,370 --> 00:37:09,710
research into for example the use of

804
00:37:13,779 --> 00:37:12,380
certain medicines certain herbal

805
00:37:16,029 --> 00:37:13,789
medicines and dementia and things like

806
00:37:18,420 --> 00:37:16,039
that and yes fair enough I can see why

807
00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:18,430
they would want to do that research part

808
00:37:23,890 --> 00:37:21,200
when they're then associated along with

809
00:37:26,180 --> 00:37:23,900
something like homeopathy or therapeutic

810
00:37:28,670 --> 00:37:26,190
touch things which have resounding

811
00:37:30,170 --> 00:37:28,680
been demonstrated to be no more

812
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:30,180
effective than placebo and to have

813
00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:32,640
absolutely no merit whatsoever then I

814
00:37:36,710 --> 00:37:34,680
think that they're completely destroying

815
00:37:38,270 --> 00:37:36,720
any credibility this is one of the

816
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:38,280
things that Steve novella was talking

817
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:40,710
about recently when he had a meeting

818
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:42,570
with one of the directors of n cam in

819
00:37:47,930 --> 00:37:45,450
the sea ice yeah and the new director

820
00:37:49,940 --> 00:37:47,940
there was saying well we haven't grant

821
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:49,950
given grants that we are these are small

822
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:52,290
years but they still have it lets you

823
00:37:56,900 --> 00:37:55,530
know cut it out of their option not know

824
00:37:59,000 --> 00:37:56,910
exactly so that it's like they're

825
00:38:00,950 --> 00:37:59,010
leaving the door open yeah and they've

826
00:38:02,990 --> 00:38:00,960
still got this association with these

827
00:38:06,260 --> 00:38:03,000
organizations and this can be seen very

828
00:38:09,650 --> 00:38:06,270
clearly when you look at so they've got

829
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:09,660
here professional associations and

830
00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:13,050
really the way i took this was that this

831
00:38:18,170 --> 00:38:15,900
is a list of modalities that they are

832
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:18,180
aligned with in terms of research and

833
00:38:22,220 --> 00:38:20,610
it's an extensive wait a minute i just

834
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:22,230
took to diane space she's looking at

835
00:38:29,510 --> 00:38:26,010
your show what's a Diane oh just the

836
00:38:34,430 --> 00:38:29,520
list of stuff on on there this

837
00:38:38,350 --> 00:38:34,440
ridiculous ryky Tai Chi great how much

838
00:38:43,070 --> 00:38:38,360
money do they aren't any homeopathy

839
00:38:44,540 --> 00:38:43,080
bowen therapy aromatherapy I'll do it

840
00:38:46,310 --> 00:38:44,550
myself see the thing is they're using

841
00:38:47,780 --> 00:38:46,320
credible scientists like current Phelps

842
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:47,790
who is an award winning scientist in

843
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:49,770
fact she won a very important award in

844
00:38:59,570 --> 00:38:56,490
2008 yes she's a good company back

845
00:39:01,970 --> 00:38:59,580
there's a Meryl Dory one that yeah the

846
00:39:04,340 --> 00:39:01,980
researcher oh yeah she's good she's

847
00:39:06,380 --> 00:39:04,350
Australia's most respected expert on

848
00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:06,390
vaccinations didn't you know that yeah

849
00:39:11,980 --> 00:39:07,910
she said she was a

850
00:39:14,410 --> 00:39:11,990
what is the mother researcher and public

851
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:14,420
policy advocate she has a brain that's

852
00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:17,359
all she said I mean yeah on that joy

853
00:39:25,029 --> 00:39:19,730
there are the people who are on the

854
00:39:27,549 --> 00:39:25,039
advisory committee yeah some very very

855
00:39:29,859 --> 00:39:27,559
well respected and decorated highly

856
00:39:32,770 --> 00:39:29,869
decorated scientists and the reason that

857
00:39:35,770 --> 00:39:32,780
i found this was because professor david

858
00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:35,780
Cahoon in the UK found that there's a

859
00:39:41,829 --> 00:39:37,760
guy on the scientific advisor can be a

860
00:39:44,140 --> 00:39:41,839
very best david career yes that's why we

861
00:39:47,079 --> 00:39:44,150
got in touch with me now he's actually a

862
00:39:49,690 --> 00:39:47,089
cardiologist who has it runs a private

863
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:49,700
practice in Britain Brisbane but he's

864
00:39:56,250 --> 00:39:53,930
doing apparently coordinating over 20

865
00:39:59,400 --> 00:39:56,260
trials at the moment into things like

866
00:40:01,630 --> 00:39:59,410
lipids nutrition nutraceuticals

867
00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:01,640
psychological aspects of heart disease

868
00:40:07,990 --> 00:40:04,609
diabetes and obesity and he's running a

869
00:40:10,650 --> 00:40:08,000
trial to see at the moment if from as he

870
00:40:13,690 --> 00:40:10,660
said deliberate weight reduction reduces

871
00:40:15,430 --> 00:40:13,700
cardiovascular events now there's no

872
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:15,440
more details about that study so I don't

873
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:16,730
know what endpoints they're looking at I

874
00:40:22,059 --> 00:40:19,130
guess cardiovascular events would be if

875
00:40:25,660 --> 00:40:22,069
you die well okay Terrance would be any

876
00:40:28,930 --> 00:40:25,670
it could be any sort of yeah heart

877
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:28,940
attack enjoy I with me out of here yeah

878
00:40:33,460 --> 00:40:31,490
but rachel one of the things that really

879
00:40:35,950 --> 00:40:33,470
struck me in fact there were a lot of

880
00:40:39,130 --> 00:40:35,960
things as I as I sort of tore through

881
00:40:41,710 --> 00:40:39,140
this that really concerned me ha you

882
00:40:44,859 --> 00:40:41,720
finished to Marcus baby I did you know

883
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:44,869
me and my highlighting had a great time

884
00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:48,010
even pulled out a pen ok notes anyway um

885
00:40:53,829 --> 00:40:51,680
you know the buzzwords in health care

886
00:40:55,779 --> 00:40:53,839
these days are really important to think

887
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:55,789
about when looking at what an

888
00:41:00,020 --> 00:40:57,930
organization like this is doing

889
00:41:04,430 --> 00:41:00,030
and one of the very first things they

890
00:41:06,859 --> 00:41:04,440
talk about is that Australia is facing

891
00:41:09,020 --> 00:41:06,869
escalating health costs and they talk

892
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:09,030
you know you always hear in healthcare

893
00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:11,130
talking about things like aging

894
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:14,910
populations and you know people who the

895
00:41:18,970 --> 00:41:16,650
number of people who have multiple

896
00:41:21,859 --> 00:41:18,980
comorbidities and things like that and

897
00:41:23,329 --> 00:41:21,869
it's some level I look at this and my

898
00:41:25,940 --> 00:41:23,339
alarm bells start ringing because I

899
00:41:27,799 --> 00:41:25,950
think you know are we investing money in

900
00:41:31,940 --> 00:41:27,809
this because we're trying to find cheap

901
00:41:34,130 --> 00:41:31,950
and easy ways of managing health in a

902
00:41:38,210 --> 00:41:34,140
way that we're just not able to manage

903
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:38,220
any more and providing effectively

904
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:40,890
placebo health care for the chronic

905
00:41:45,799 --> 00:41:42,690
illnesses which we just don't have the

906
00:41:47,660 --> 00:41:45,809
money to invest in effectively because

907
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:47,670
that really is a huge problem primary

908
00:41:52,190 --> 00:41:49,290
health care is something that is

909
00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:52,200
completely underfunded and it is vitally

910
00:42:00,410 --> 00:41:55,520
important in you know it in terms of

911
00:42:03,589 --> 00:42:00,420
what we need to decrease the the impact

912
00:42:05,359 --> 00:42:03,599
of illness on the acute care system and

913
00:42:06,859 --> 00:42:05,369
something like this can be viewed as

914
00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:06,869
primary health care by a lot of people

915
00:42:11,329 --> 00:42:09,089
who are looking at ways to fix the

916
00:42:13,490 --> 00:42:11,339
problem and that's something I find

917
00:42:17,420 --> 00:42:13,500
really worrying that you know this type

918
00:42:19,339 --> 00:42:17,430
of therapy can be used in that way this

919
00:42:22,730 --> 00:42:19,349
kind of thing without doing anything

920
00:42:25,460 --> 00:42:22,740
practical is lending some credibility to

921
00:42:27,230 --> 00:42:25,470
these to these modalities

922
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:27,240
yeah well I'm in one of the guys on the

923
00:42:33,290 --> 00:42:29,970
advisory committee is the the deputy

924
00:42:35,390 --> 00:42:33,300
director of em cam the NIH one so it's

925
00:42:37,940 --> 00:42:35,400
all tied up to that as well did you say

926
00:42:40,359 --> 00:42:37,950
rachy that this is called the National

927
00:42:44,589 --> 00:42:40,369
what is the national institute of

928
00:42:47,150 --> 00:42:44,599
medicine or niccum for short become yeah

929
00:42:49,370 --> 00:42:47,160
yeah that's all she does Nick like

930
00:42:51,980 --> 00:42:49,380
million dollars I found quite

931
00:42:54,980 --> 00:42:51,990
interesting with some they talk a lot

932
00:42:59,530 --> 00:42:54,990
about the things that we value in

933
00:43:01,700 --> 00:42:59,540
science about you know rigorous research

934
00:43:03,020 --> 00:43:01,710
rigorous methodologies all all the

935
00:43:04,970 --> 00:43:03,030
things that we talk about but then they

936
00:43:10,730 --> 00:43:04,980
in terms of their research priorities

937
00:43:12,650 --> 00:43:10,740
they say the priorities are research

938
00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:12,660
that investigates methodological issues

939
00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:14,880
relevant to the complex complex nature

940
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:16,800
of complementary medicine including

941
00:43:20,599 --> 00:43:18,690
development of methodological tools

942
00:43:22,010 --> 00:43:20,609
which may impact on our understanding of

943
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:22,020
the whole practice concepts and

944
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:23,970
mechanisms underpinning complementary

945
00:43:28,670 --> 00:43:26,970
medicine now I understand that in terms

946
00:43:30,470 --> 00:43:28,680
of you know doing research into any

947
00:43:32,180 --> 00:43:30,480
modality that yes you do have to develop

948
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:32,190
measurement tools and things like that

949
00:43:38,839 --> 00:43:33,930
that are appropriate for that particular

950
00:43:41,060 --> 00:43:38,849
thing but that also says to me it's that

951
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:41,070
whole idea that people involved in this

952
00:43:44,270 --> 00:43:42,450
kind of thing talk about that somehow

953
00:43:46,820 --> 00:43:44,280
complementary medicine can't be

954
00:43:48,970 --> 00:43:46,830
investigated in using the same science

955
00:43:51,650 --> 00:43:48,980
as other medicine because it does

956
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:51,660
exactly and there and so it sort of you

957
00:43:56,870 --> 00:43:53,970
know are we looking at a way to invent a

958
00:44:01,599 --> 00:43:56,880
whole new science to give to open doors

959
00:44:05,900 --> 00:44:04,370
tell me you only need special signs when

960
00:44:08,300 --> 00:44:05,910
the real regular science doesn't work

961
00:44:10,430 --> 00:44:08,310
yeah yeah they're more than happy to

962
00:44:10,820 --> 00:44:10,440
adopt the results when they release the

963
00:44:12,770 --> 00:44:10,830
nice

964
00:44:15,620 --> 00:44:12,780
any results is there anything that has

965
00:44:18,350 --> 00:44:15,630
come out of it I didn't actually have a

966
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:18,360
charge to look annoying that I would be

967
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:20,610
interesting yet to continue and say what

968
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:22,530
have you come up with so yeah yeah yeah

969
00:44:27,260 --> 00:44:24,210
I don't I don't remember if there was it

970
00:44:28,670 --> 00:44:27,270
to have I remember there was one tab

971
00:44:31,610 --> 00:44:28,680
that was completely blank but I don't

972
00:44:35,150 --> 00:44:31,620
remember where it was I mean I'm deny

973
00:44:36,710 --> 00:44:35,160
that was the pond yeah the other day I

974
00:44:39,230 --> 00:44:36,720
have to say that gave me a little bit of

975
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:39,240
a chuckle it was a bit of her ha moment

976
00:44:42,620 --> 00:44:41,250
was um I don't know if you actually

977
00:44:44,630 --> 00:44:42,630
looked at their definition of

978
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:44,640
complementary medicine but they give a

979
00:44:48,350 --> 00:44:46,290
definition of complementary and a

980
00:44:51,020 --> 00:44:48,360
definition of medicine and their

981
00:44:52,850 --> 00:44:51,030
definition of opportunities sure well

982
00:44:55,490 --> 00:44:52,860
their definition of complementary is

983
00:45:01,670 --> 00:44:55,500
forming a complete or balanced whole oh

984
00:45:03,470 --> 00:45:01,680
good now I'm sorry I check that's not

985
00:45:06,410 --> 00:45:03,480
why I create a completely balanced all

986
00:45:07,580 --> 00:45:06,420
using bullet thanks cuz you know what I

987
00:45:09,410 --> 00:45:07,590
probably pretty cool you know what I

988
00:45:12,650 --> 00:45:09,420
also think is interesting about this Joe

989
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:12,660
is they have stayed away from using the

990
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:14,730
term alternative they have and I'm

991
00:45:17,630 --> 00:45:16,560
pretty sure that's deliberately so

992
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:17,640
they've just called themselves the

993
00:45:21,590 --> 00:45:19,170
National Institute of complementary

994
00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:21,600
medicine which means our modalities will

995
00:45:26,450 --> 00:45:24,510
complement conventional medicine will

996
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:26,460
give conventional medicine a little help

997
00:45:30,590 --> 00:45:29,370
yeah yeah but but they do I mean if you

998
00:45:31,910 --> 00:45:30,600
read through their stuff every now and

999
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:31,920
then you'll find a you know they've

1000
00:45:36,230 --> 00:45:33,570
dropped one like here they've got

1001
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:36,240
wellness promotion yeah yeah so you know

1002
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:37,770
they go from all this very scientific

1003
00:45:42,890 --> 00:45:41,370
terminology into we're going to you

1004
00:45:45,500 --> 00:45:42,900
insinuating that wellness is not a

1005
00:45:47,230 --> 00:45:45,510
saleable turn yes I am but but this

1006
00:45:50,630 --> 00:45:47,240
sentence so they want to facilitate

1007
00:45:53,060 --> 00:45:50,640
discussion and and do preliminary work

1008
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:53,070
to complete much as possible in the

1009
00:45:57,860 --> 00:45:55,050
areas of cancer cardiovascular disease

1010
00:46:01,190 --> 00:45:57,870
diabetes neurological disorders brackets

1011
00:46:03,770 --> 00:46:01,200
dimensions and wellness promotion that's

1012
00:46:06,830 --> 00:46:03,780
like that there's a company advertising

1013
00:46:10,490 --> 00:46:06,840
on TV and some sort of pill that will

1014
00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:10,500
give you back the zest gosh take this

1015
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:12,560
pill and you'll have more zest right

1016
00:46:17,660 --> 00:46:15,210
it's your scientific testing you

1017
00:46:19,250 --> 00:46:17,670
now i don't know i saw this page which

1018
00:46:23,660 --> 00:46:19,260
was their page of facts and statistics

1019
00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:23,670
and i was really amused by this one so

1020
00:46:28,730 --> 00:46:26,910
they say here that too in three

1021
00:46:31,130 --> 00:46:28,740
australians use complementary medicine

1022
00:46:33,349 --> 00:46:31,140
each year and they then say that almost

1023
00:46:35,660 --> 00:46:33,359
four times more spent on complementary

1024
00:46:39,230 --> 00:46:35,670
medicine than on pharmaceuticals now

1025
00:46:43,370 --> 00:46:39,240
yeah in the brackets they also say in

1026
00:46:45,290 --> 00:46:43,380
out-of-pocket expenses now I mean

1027
00:46:48,079 --> 00:46:45,300
obviously that's because you've got the

1028
00:46:51,050 --> 00:46:48,089
PBS you've got ya drugs are drugs that I

1029
00:46:52,670 --> 00:46:51,060
can cover by the government en exactly

1030
00:46:55,579 --> 00:46:52,680
but you know what they'll cover in

1031
00:46:57,410 --> 00:46:55,589
complementary medicine nope I go along

1032
00:46:59,960 --> 00:46:57,420
every now and then have a nice time

1033
00:47:02,210 --> 00:46:59,970
massage down down the road and I bet

1034
00:47:04,070 --> 00:47:02,220
they would say did you have a mess a

1035
00:47:05,630 --> 00:47:04,080
year okay you use complementary medicine

1036
00:47:07,700 --> 00:47:05,640
well the thing is though that they've

1037
00:47:10,670 --> 00:47:07,710
cited these statistics there isn't a

1038
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:10,680
single source for any of them I don't

1039
00:47:14,870 --> 00:47:12,210
know where they got this data from they

1040
00:47:17,359 --> 00:47:14,880
say that you know complementary medicine

1041
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:17,369
users have healthier lifestyles and

1042
00:47:21,109 --> 00:47:19,440
seventy-three percent have you no

1043
00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:21,119
minimum serves of fruit and vegetables

1044
00:47:25,099 --> 00:47:23,250
is opposed you know for toys money uncle

1045
00:47:27,380 --> 00:47:25,109
exactly we know that people who know

1046
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:27,390
that about the people who use it so you

1047
00:47:31,359 --> 00:47:29,310
know but but they don't source any of us

1048
00:47:34,970 --> 00:47:31,369
and and I think that you know it's

1049
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:34,980
anyway so yeah there are they're looking

1050
00:47:38,660 --> 00:47:37,770
for for data their whole idea is to

1051
00:47:40,010 --> 00:47:38,670
liquidate up and they're not even

1052
00:47:42,589 --> 00:47:40,020
providing evidence for their own

1053
00:47:44,420 --> 00:47:42,599
statistics which I find quite far

1054
00:47:48,470 --> 00:47:44,430
there's money in them that are

1055
00:47:50,450 --> 00:47:48,480
complementary medicine so any of our

1056
00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:50,460
listeners who somebody actually tweeted

1057
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:53,040
back to me last night that they study on

1058
00:47:57,050 --> 00:47:54,330
that campus and they didn't know it

1059
00:47:58,880 --> 00:47:57,060
exists so if you anyone who's I'm

1060
00:48:01,820 --> 00:47:58,890
studying at uws and actually Rachel

1061
00:48:04,010 --> 00:48:01,830
Welsh who listens to the show go check

1062
00:48:07,550 --> 00:48:04,020
it out and tell us what's going on in

1063
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:07,560
the bunkers of that nikam that's

1064
00:48:11,359 --> 00:48:09,330
something actually I just you know with

1065
00:48:15,589 --> 00:48:11,369
the fact that uws is the university that

1066
00:48:16,970 --> 00:48:15,599
is a lie aligned to this uws is one of

1067
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:16,980
the universities in Australia that

1068
00:48:22,850 --> 00:48:20,250
carries a large number of the degree

1069
00:48:25,430 --> 00:48:22,860
courses in things like Chinese medicine

1070
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:25,440
I mean various modules naturopathy but

1071
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:32,970
in a lot of these practices so another

1072
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:34,650
mention by me quickly don't forget

1073
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:37,290
listeners that you can hear the skeptics

1074
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:40,890
dr. H II myself dr. Chrissy and anybody

1075
00:48:44,420 --> 00:48:42,930
else Joe I hope you'll be fronting along

1076
00:48:49,430 --> 00:48:44,430
soon around you're always welcome on

1077
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:49,440
radio 2 GB here in Sydney that's 873 on

1078
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:51,810
the am dial usually every second

1079
00:48:54,860 --> 00:48:53,610
saturday or so but we certainly let you

1080
00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:54,870
know via twitter when that's happening

1081
00:49:01,670 --> 00:48:58,170
without good friend Glenn wheeler and of

1082
00:49:05,330 --> 00:49:01,680
course around and on sunday this Sunday

1083
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:05,340
ninth of mayor 845 Sydney time I will be

1084
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:08,730
on radio national speaking on the

1085
00:49:14,510 --> 00:49:11,730
program named Occam's razor and if it's

1086
00:49:16,340 --> 00:49:14,520
about assessing evidence ok and if

1087
00:49:18,860 --> 00:49:16,350
listeners don't happen charlie if they

1088
00:49:21,380 --> 00:49:18,870
can't of course if they can tune in or

1089
00:49:24,470 --> 00:49:21,390
if they're out of area for for this

1090
00:49:28,730 --> 00:49:24,480
radio station they can download it later

1091
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:28,740
that morning from ABC dotnet dotter you

1092
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:32,730
radio national's website and through

1093
00:49:36,620 --> 00:49:34,410
itunes yes and what you don't have

1094
00:49:41,630 --> 00:49:36,630
service is ask where they can get the

1095
00:49:44,930 --> 00:49:41,640
podcasts of our 2gb show have you a mail

1096
00:49:47,330 --> 00:49:44,940
going to them so yeah we we usually not

1097
00:49:49,310 --> 00:49:47,340
always we usually get to record our when

1098
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:49,320
we're on to GV i've got about four or

1099
00:49:53,540 --> 00:49:51,090
five of them kicking around my computer

1100
00:49:55,970 --> 00:49:53,550
we put one or two up online but

1101
00:49:58,660 --> 00:49:55,980
generally speaking they're not really

1102
00:50:04,660 --> 00:50:01,120
you can hear them anywhere in the world

1103
00:50:06,100 --> 00:50:04,670
while we're doing them on 2gb com yeah

1104
00:50:09,220 --> 00:50:06,110
but that wasn't my question I know I

1105
00:50:12,010 --> 00:50:09,230
know well if we get enough people

1106
00:50:13,390 --> 00:50:12,020
requesting it maybe we can call I can

1107
00:50:17,770 --> 00:50:13,400
clay what we have to make them available

1108
00:50:21,570 --> 00:50:17,780
ok so you so yes Joe I'm sure you'll

1109
00:50:24,220 --> 00:50:21,580
have to phone up and beyond and that

1110
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:24,230
that radio program we're on is actually

1111
00:50:30,340 --> 00:50:27,170
about to go semi national yeah it soft

1112
00:50:33,250 --> 00:50:30,350
it's gonna be real sin decatur through

1113
00:50:35,380 --> 00:50:33,260
Melbourne so that's pretty cool I have

1114
00:50:37,210 --> 00:50:35,390
another announcement I we need the

1115
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:37,220
announcement stage now so let you know

1116
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:39,440
something so I'd like to a now on i'ma

1117
00:50:46,690 --> 00:50:43,450
get on thurs nouncement anybody else on

1118
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:46,700
Thursday the 13th of may I will be

1119
00:50:53,710 --> 00:50:51,050
speaking to Canberra skeptics ah will I

1120
00:50:58,030 --> 00:50:53,720
be listening I wonder I'm sure some of

1121
00:51:00,460 --> 00:50:58,040
them will be it's at six I think 6pm 47

1122
00:51:02,590 --> 00:51:00,470
p.m. starts so there's like dinner and

1123
00:51:04,750 --> 00:51:02,600
stuff and then the talk is at seven pm

1124
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:04,760
and it's at the lecture theatre then of

1125
00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:07,130
innovations building eggleston road and

1126
00:51:12,550 --> 00:51:10,730
you but what was that date again if the

1127
00:51:14,890 --> 00:51:12,560
13th of May thirteenth amade the

1128
00:51:17,170 --> 00:51:14,900
Canberra skeptics listeners in that area

1129
00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:17,180
go along and you can he run guineas

1130
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:20,000
autograph for who Google Canberra

1131
00:51:26,170 --> 00:51:21,410
skeptics and you can find out more i'm

1132
00:51:28,930 --> 00:51:26,180
sure and Ron I think we've got some tam

1133
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:28,940
Australian use as well as we do we have

1134
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:31,010
two speakers that we're going to add to

1135
00:51:35,710 --> 00:51:33,290
the list of advertisers because we've

1136
00:51:38,110 --> 00:51:35,720
got more exciting guests yeah the list

1137
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:38,120
but we can announce that two of our

1138
00:51:43,290 --> 00:51:41,330
friends here the skeptic sound will be

1139
00:51:48,690 --> 00:51:43,300
participating will be able speaker Oh

1140
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:51,880
so dr. h er that's very exciting you're

1141
00:51:54,850 --> 00:51:53,090
gonna be one of the speakers of

1142
00:51:59,320 --> 00:51:54,860
chemistry it is very exciting i'm very

1143
00:52:01,300 --> 00:51:59,330
excited yeah you on an a380 oh that

1144
00:52:04,210 --> 00:52:01,310
would be that would be cool that would

1145
00:52:05,350 --> 00:52:04,220
be cool if you can arrange that even if

1146
00:52:07,390 --> 00:52:05,360
you have to go around the world first

1147
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:07,400
that's fine no see I don't mind all

1148
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:08,810
right yeah pretty good to land right

1149
00:52:16,860 --> 00:52:13,010
outside the smc center I know they can

1150
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:16,870
exchange it that's like pin number oh

1151
00:52:26,410 --> 00:52:22,970
god you pity me now Tommy however we are

1152
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:26,420
on we are working very hard on details

1153
00:52:29,860 --> 00:52:28,490
for Tamara Australia and hopefully

1154
00:52:32,350 --> 00:52:29,870
before too long we should be able to

1155
00:52:34,930 --> 00:52:32,360
direct people to a permanent website yes

1156
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:34,940
that's coming soon coming it's coming

1157
00:52:40,870 --> 00:52:38,330
also we will be keep your eyes and ears

1158
00:52:44,580 --> 00:52:40,880
and everything else open for well not

1159
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:44,590
quite everything else senses only sense

1160
00:52:50,170 --> 00:52:47,570
open for news about when we will be

1161
00:52:55,990 --> 00:52:50,180
selling tickets because it's coming it's

1162
00:53:00,760 --> 00:52:56,000
coming soon yeah I'll be lining up for

1163
00:53:03,190 --> 00:53:00,770
the food it won't food for the noms and

1164
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:03,200
so let me swing the microphone around

1165
00:53:09,190 --> 00:53:06,650
again now you'll appreciate this this

1166
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:09,200
lazy susan a boy it's got the microphone

1167
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:10,850
sitting on it so if i swing it around

1168
00:53:14,830 --> 00:53:13,130
its facing you Joe ah like I suppose

1169
00:53:17,050 --> 00:53:14,840
every one of my favorite bands actually

1170
00:53:19,770 --> 00:53:17,060
they're really good Sydney bad if I

1171
00:53:26,170 --> 00:53:19,780
wonder if farmers know what a lazy susan

1172
00:53:27,670 --> 00:53:26,180
dog google says in Australian time for

1173
00:53:30,700 --> 00:53:27,680
some reason the girls are cracking up

1174
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:30,710
presently the lazy susan of you go go

1175
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:34,730
ahead Joe oh so I'm I got an iphone

1176
00:53:39,610 --> 00:53:36,410
recently so I've been exploring the

1177
00:53:42,190 --> 00:53:39,620
world of apps and for that farm there's

1178
00:53:45,010 --> 00:53:42,200
enough of that is in there so apparently

1179
00:53:48,340 --> 00:53:45,020
I've just discovered today that all have

1180
00:53:53,260 --> 00:53:48,350
apparently booted an STD psychic healing

1181
00:53:56,470 --> 00:53:53,270
app off their list of apps really indeed

1182
00:53:58,390 --> 00:53:56,480
I hear you say um according to this

1183
00:54:01,299 --> 00:53:58,400
little piece i found online

1184
00:54:02,940 --> 00:54:01,309
ah Apple has decided that psychic

1185
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:02,950
healing has no place in the app store

1186
00:54:08,319 --> 00:54:05,450
despite last week approving a distance

1187
00:54:13,059 --> 00:54:08,329
healing application for warts what for

1188
00:54:15,370 --> 00:54:13,069
1299 apparently people who voted my palm

1189
00:54:19,779 --> 00:54:15,380
people who bought a copy of what healer

1190
00:54:22,569 --> 00:54:19,789
were asked to take well as to take a

1191
00:54:25,269 --> 00:54:22,579
photograph of their water we just sent

1192
00:54:28,150 --> 00:54:25,279
to the professional mental healer who

1193
00:54:31,299 --> 00:54:28,160
spends the next and i quote a hundred

1194
00:54:34,299 --> 00:54:31,309
and eleven days thinking about it after

1195
00:54:36,069 --> 00:54:34,309
all worst effects are visible it was

1196
00:54:38,980 --> 00:54:36,079
approved on the twenty-second of april

1197
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:38,990
but was pulled this week by apple what

1198
00:54:44,559 --> 00:54:41,650
if he walked in a personal place oh

1199
00:54:49,150 --> 00:54:44,569
that's what do you hope will find out

1200
00:54:54,370 --> 00:54:49,160
embarrassing illness that's your

1201
00:54:58,870 --> 00:54:54,380
favorite show it's actually probably a

1202
00:55:00,599 --> 00:54:58,880
bit of a a bit of a forge oh please you

1203
00:55:02,529 --> 00:55:00,609
know depends because of his job

1204
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:02,539
embarrassing illnesses is kind of a

1205
00:55:09,279 --> 00:55:05,770
reach of every bit of a relief no

1206
00:55:10,870 --> 00:55:09,289
respite it's a restaurant but anyway I

1207
00:55:12,579 --> 00:55:10,880
found a rather amusing that Apple had

1208
00:55:14,799 --> 00:55:12,589
chosen to get rid of this given the fact

1209
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:14,809
that in fact there are many apps out

1210
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:16,970
there within the health and medical

1211
00:55:22,690 --> 00:55:19,730
section which are entirely quackery I'm

1212
00:55:24,730 --> 00:55:22,700
gonna hold me up homeopathic I've got an

1213
00:55:26,559 --> 00:55:24,740
astrology oh yeah apparently there's a

1214
00:55:30,210 --> 00:55:26,569
crystal healing Bowl to excite your

1215
00:55:34,510 --> 00:55:30,220
chakra sorry your check was excited

1216
00:55:37,690 --> 00:55:34,520
they're vibrating hey I my chakra so

1217
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:37,700
excited too mmm because Andrew

1218
00:55:45,849 --> 00:55:43,130
Wakefield's written a book run for the

1219
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:45,859
Union now somebody on Twitter today said

1220
00:55:49,210 --> 00:55:47,450
that they were really pleased to see

1221
00:55:52,210 --> 00:55:49,220
this because he's always been very good

1222
00:55:54,010 --> 00:55:52,220
at fiction or something and it says his

1223
00:55:55,390 --> 00:55:54,020
first foray into fiction it's actually

1224
00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:55,400
not published yet but it's called

1225
00:56:01,089 --> 00:55:58,010
callous disregard and it's the story of

1226
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:01,099
his you know about callous downfall I

1227
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:01,970
guess

1228
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:03,650
he doesn't forward and actually gives

1229
00:56:10,359 --> 00:56:08,090
the end away I didn't know that I know

1230
00:56:13,990 --> 00:56:10,369
that she did the forward but the ship

1231
00:56:32,790 --> 00:56:14,000
sing does she what do you mean she gives

1232
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:51,580
to go red go purple no I'm sorry I'm a

1233
00:56:56,740 --> 00:56:55,490
bit slow but I get it now um yes I it's

1234
00:57:00,609 --> 00:56:56,750
I don't know when it's you know what

1235
00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:00,619
it's related not sure yeah back oh you

1236
00:57:06,190 --> 00:57:04,730
might be scary so will it my way we look

1237
00:57:10,089 --> 00:57:06,200
forward to reading his side of the story

1238
00:57:12,089 --> 00:57:10,099
yes oh I'll get it you've still got my

1239
00:57:17,620 --> 00:57:12,099
Jenny McCarthy book have you read it yet

1240
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:17,630
yes and it was terrible what do you

1241
00:57:22,510 --> 00:57:20,450
learn to read it no oh well I bought

1242
00:57:23,980 --> 00:57:22,520
that one that I lent you for five

1243
00:57:26,260 --> 00:57:23,990
dollars in the bargain bin in new york

1244
00:57:28,030 --> 00:57:26,270
city so i'll probably wait for weight

1245
00:57:30,550 --> 00:57:28,040
feels to appear in the bargain bin DC

1246
00:57:33,010 --> 00:57:30,560
absolutely trained here yeah y'all wait

1247
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:33,020
a whole week we get I give you you know

1248
00:57:38,020 --> 00:57:36,050
nice auntie roo books you throw at us

1249
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:38,030
things like France Sheffield homeopathy

1250
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:41,170
plus dvds and Jenny McCarthy's book

1251
00:57:47,710 --> 00:57:45,170
you're trying to torture us don't forget

1252
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:47,720
second opinion oh that's the worst thing

1253
00:57:53,230 --> 00:57:51,050
out of it all right I you know one day I

1254
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:53,240
think we should live stream this think

1255
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:57,050
tank on a video de know then people can

1256
00:58:02,120 --> 00:57:59,280
see what colors you're turning diet

1257
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:02,130
I can see you Rachel and joe kept them

1258
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:03,690
so silly and nearly fall off their

1259
00:58:08,540 --> 00:58:06,210
chairs there's just one problem with

1260
00:58:14,180 --> 00:58:08,550
that idea what Sam you can't edit live

1261
00:58:18,230 --> 00:58:14,190
streams no better not and a big apology

1262
00:58:21,740 --> 00:58:18,240
it seems the club has led us down no bus

1263
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:21,750
announcements this week and we can work

1264
00:58:27,830 --> 00:58:24,810
in a con make one reject on yep first

1265
00:58:30,410 --> 00:58:27,840
announcement widget members and guests

1266
00:58:33,380 --> 00:58:30,420
let's first to Houston town and family

1267
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:33,390
will be leaving in five minutes very

1268
00:58:37,340 --> 00:58:35,730
good nobody photo is now if you leave

1269
00:58:41,540 --> 00:58:37,350
that in yeah well with thing that that's

1270
00:58:43,100 --> 00:58:41,550
that's always eager I'm now mrs. on Iran

1271
00:58:44,780 --> 00:58:43,110
so Jeff thank you so much for making

1272
00:58:47,540 --> 00:58:44,790
your way all the way over here for the

1273
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:47,550
thing tank again curated Diane thank you

1274
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:49,650
thank you no problem widget that's good

1275
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:52,290
you say that and got uh haughtily bunker

1276
00:58:59,420 --> 00:58:54,530
I'll Spain I'm here hon music today oh

1277
00:59:01,850 --> 00:58:59,430
you said a gangsta bread coffee are you

1278
00:59:03,420 --> 00:59:01,860
finished off in room how can you save

1279
00:59:08,730 --> 00:59:03,430
every night

1280
00:59:11,940 --> 00:59:08,740
then you climb at Oyster venue clav my

1281
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:11,950
twister 17 please are you have you

1282
00:59:28,290 --> 00:59:24,690
finished coffee I believe that in

1283
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:28,300
Spokane if you're not gonna happen thank

1284
00:59:32,700 --> 00:59:29,890
you for coming over thank every way

1285
00:59:35,220 --> 00:59:32,710
across the bridge mm-hmm indeed as usual

1286
00:59:37,620 --> 00:59:35,230
as usual and dr. heo post thank you so

1287
00:59:41,370 --> 00:59:37,630
much for coming on oh thanks i'm

1288
00:59:43,140 --> 00:59:41,380
twittering I wasn't listening you see

1289
00:59:47,370 --> 00:59:43,150
why you can't do this alone you can't do

1290
00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:47,380
this in a podcast goodness me she must

1291
00:59:54,750 --> 00:59:48,910
have read she must have read a funny

1292
00:59:56,700 --> 00:59:54,760
twitter and and you've been a very

1293
00:59:58,559 --> 00:59:56,710
probably just point out that came out of

1294
01:00:00,990 --> 00:59:58,569
the mouth it did you've been a very

1295
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:01,000
patient audience my friend is so until

1296
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:32,900
you

1297
01:00:38,570 --> 01:00:35,730
this is Eugenie Scott National Center

1298
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:38,580
for Science Education you can find us at

1299
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:44,010
ww ncsc com come see us if you want to

1300
01:00:48,140 --> 01:00:45,930
know anything about the creationism and

1301
01:00:51,170 --> 01:00:48,150
evolution conflict in the United States

1302
01:00:52,940 --> 01:00:51,180
or more's the pity internationally these

1303
01:00:56,210 --> 01:00:52,950
days we are a clearinghouse for

1304
01:00:58,880 --> 01:00:56,220
information on this vexing but certainly

1305
01:01:14,910 --> 01:00:58,890
very interesting problem come and find

1306
01:01:20,609 --> 01:01:17,609
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1307
01:01:22,289 --> 01:01:20,619
zone and once again thank you for

1308
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:22,299
everybody who's writing in letting me

1309
01:01:26,789 --> 01:01:24,130
know what you're doing while listening

1310
01:01:31,049 --> 01:01:26,799
to the skeptic zone a lot of people are

1311
01:01:32,819 --> 01:01:31,059
driving at the moment yeah take care you

1312
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:32,829
might run into people who are listening

1313
01:01:37,799 --> 01:01:35,130
to us on their iPods is there jogging

1314
01:01:40,859 --> 01:01:37,809
wouldn't that be something and a special

1315
01:01:44,370 --> 01:01:40,869
a special shout out to all those people

1316
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:44,380
who can't sleep right now sitting up in

1317
01:01:49,620 --> 01:01:47,290
bed sitting on your couch eyes wide open

1318
01:01:53,359 --> 01:01:49,630
wishing you could sleep battling

1319
01:01:59,670 --> 01:01:53,369
insomnia but listening to us instead I

1320
01:02:06,660 --> 01:01:59,680
hope we send you to sleep at all next

1321
01:02:13,410 --> 01:02:06,670
week if you Richard sword is signing off

1322
01:02:15,750 --> 01:02:13,420
from Sydney Australia you've been

1323
01:02:20,250 --> 01:02:15,760
listening to the skeptic zone visit our

1324
01:02:24,980 --> 01:02:20,260
website at www skeptics on TV for

1325
01:02:30,050 --> 01:02:24,990
comments contacts an extra video reports